Trailblazing Professional Agvocacy with Dr. MeeCee Baker

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Show Notes

Dr. MeeCee Baker, President and CEO of Versant Strategies

Summary

On this episode of the Farm Credit AgVocates Podcast, we interviewed Dr. MeeCee Baker, President and CEO of Versant Strategies in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. In this episode, you’ll learn how MeeCee transitioned from teaching ag education for 20 years to advocating for Pennsylvania agriculture with Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture and eventually leading the charge at Versant Strategies. MeeCee has overcome many barriers in the industry and works hard standing up for the ag community in PA.

Links

Transcript

Kurt Fuchs:

Welcome to the Farm Credit AgVocates podcast. I'm your guest host Kurt Fuchs, Senior VP of Government Affairs for MidAtlantic Farm Credit. I'm excited to have with me today, Dr. MeeCee Baker, a daughter of Pennsylvania, and a true advocate for agriculture. MeeCee owns Versant Strategies, a premier governmental relations firm focused on agricultural, environmental and rural issues. Versant has represented dozens of clients in the Harrisburg and DC marketplace ranging from small farms and businesses to Fortune 500 companies. Full disclosure, we have worked with MeeCee and her stellar team at Versant Strategies for several years now and can attest to the impressive support, connections and guidance they provide to their clients. We've had it in our minds to have MeeCee on the podcast for a while now, but it seems especially fitting to be conducting the interview here in March during Women's History Month. You'll come to find out during our discussion, MeeCee has blazed quite the path throughout her impressive professional career. She is certainly an example for young women interested in pursuing a career in agriculture.

MeeCee, thanks for joining me today. I am really excited to have you on the show.

MeeCee Baker:

Kurt I'm honored. Thank you so much for having me.

Kurt Fuchs:

Let’s get right into the nitty gritty. You weren't always in government relations, in fact you began your career in agriculture education.

What led you towards that career at a time when female Ag education teachers were essentially a rarity?

The Start of a Career in Ag Education

MeeCee Baker:

Thank you for that question. I just wrote an article for a national publication about that experience, so a lot of it is very close to mind. Like many people, I started college and animal science wanting to be a Veterinarian. When those grades came in after the first semester, it was obvious that I would not be calling myself at two o'clock in the morning to pull a calf because I just did not have the grades.

From there I moved into, at that time what was called Animal Husbandry because I thought well, I can't be a Veterinarian, but I could be an Extension Agent and I pursued that. I moved from animal science over into the Ag and Extension Education department. I was walking down the hall one day and Dr. Don Evans stopped me and said you want to be an ag teacher; your mom's a teacher, and you have the farm, do you ever think about that?  

I hadn't because I was not allowed to be in ag education in high school, even though it was the early seventies when we made course selections. At that time, there were no girls allowed in Juniata County and we were a bit behind times. I never thought of it, but it was that one question walking down the hall that made me change the course of my career.

I loved being in ag education. Penn State was just wonderful at that time and I had a lot of great mentors and professors, including some that maybe your listeners know like Dr. Jim Diamond, who continues to mentor me today. I just loved that experience. I did my student teaching at Oxford in Chester County and then moved on from my first position, which was at Quarryville.

Kurt Fuchs:

Well, that's fascinating how you came to ag education.  I guess it's a sad commentary that even in the seventies, it wasn't necessarily an option for you in high school to take ag courses.

Thankfully that's not the case anymore. Judging from the interactions I've had with FFA’s within our region, there are a ton of young women engaged in FFA, which is fantastic.

MeeCee Baker:

About 50% of the FFA membership is female and about 75% of the leadership is female. I went on to pursue my master's and doctorate. My doctorate degree looked at why women entered the profession of ag education or did not, specifically at the population of women who graduated with a degree in ag education from Penn State.

At that time and up until 1990, there were 80 women and that went back as early as the 1920s, which was fascinating. We interviewed all but one individual who refused to be interviewed that were still alive. We found out that people entered the profession because of a mentor and stayed in the profession because of a mentor. They left the profession because they didn't have a mentor or left the profession because of the time commitment. That has switched today.

In my article, I mentioned, I issued another challenge and that is perhaps we need to do a similar study to see why men are not enrolling in ag education. Penn State this year has been a graduated class entirely of females and that is not unusual. At one time when there were very few female ag teachers within a generation, there are now very few men entering the profession. Perhaps it's time that we have our own little boy crisis investigation to see why the tables have turned.

Kurt Fuchs:

Wow, that's a huge demographic shift. That'll be interesting to see if there are efforts to find out what's leading to that shift. The article you're referencing, just so our listeners are aware, we'll go ahead and link to that in the show notes, so folks can access that after they listened to the podcast.

MeeCee Baker:

Yes, it’s called The Friday Footnote and it was a two piece series with me; I was the first female to be National President of the Ag Teachers Association, Karen Hutchison from Delaware, who was the first female to be the National President of the State Supervisors of Ag Education and Jacque Deeds, who was the first female to be the National President of the Teacher Educators or the folks at Colleges in Ag Education. So we all three have different perspectives of our experience.

Kurt Fuchs:

Ag education and FFA are pretty synonymous and in 2019 you were recognized by National FFA during their 50 years of Women in FFA celebration at their National Convention, which was in person. Now, I know in conversations that you and I have had over our professional relationship, your family has quite the history with FFA.

Could you share that story with some of our listeners?

FFA- a Family Tradition

MeeCee Baker:

My mother was an agricultural education student back in the 1940s and she graduated in 1942. As best as we can figure, her Ag teacher would submit the rosters, which was not unusual at that time, with just a first initial and last name and she would be D. Gilson. My mom bragged about winning the carpentry award and specifically about beating out her first cousin to win that when she'd graduate.

She liked to talk about our Ag teacher and she said he'd like to exaggerate stories about when he was in World War I and tell the boys and girls, they grew cabbages as big as bushel baskets. It's funny how you remember these stories that mom told with such vivid detail.

There were three girls in at that time; her cousin Margaret, and also Mary. There were three women in the ag education program and she was so proud to win those awards when she graduated Tuscarora Valley High School in 1942. I never realized that it took mom six years to graduate until very recently, but she actually went to the Pennsylvania Farm Show building, tried out to be a welder while she was in college, got picked because of her skills that she learned in school and on the home farm and went to Letterkenny and welded during the war.

She was there for two years and then went back to Westchester and finished her education. It's just incredible that she had those experiences and sometimes when you think about our sacrifices today, and I think about the sacrifices that greatest generation had, including my mother and my dad who was in the bottom of a ship for four years in the South Pacific, it humbles you for sure.  

Ag education skipped the generation with my sister and I, but then my daughter Libby was very fortunate to become a State Officer in Pennsylvania and was a National Star in AgriScience. It was neat to see it come full circle with my daughter and from my mom.

Kurt Fuchs:

An impressive collection of women in your family and to your point about the greatest generation and the sacrifices that they made, and that in many cases, such a humble generation, that they don't talk about it. They just did it and thankfully a lot of those stories continue to emerge and we're able to recognize the great sacrifices that they made.

MeeCee Baker:

That's right. I'll just give you one quick story about my dad, not to leave him out, but he boxed Joe Lewis on the ship because my dad was the biggest guy in the ship and he never really talked about that. It was one of his shipmates that actually brought it up and talked about that story.

He went from the ship to Thomasville, Virginia where he played for the Brooklyn Dodgers’ farm team, and then got called up to the majors around the same time that Jackie Robinson was called up. He was a knuckleballer and there's not too many of those around anymore. He ultimately came home to the real farm, but he never talked about that.

When you would ask him why he didn’t tell those stories, he would say that he is living for today and living for me, my mom and my sister. It’s a little different with that generation and we have lots of lessons to learn from them.

Kurt Fuchs:

Well, thank you for sharing that.

The follow-up question is whether or not he passed along the knuckleball skills to you?

MeeCee Baker:

If you look at my hands, I have really long fingers and you have to hold the ball a certain way to throw a knuckle ball. People will say as long as you're living, Bob Baker's hands are going to be still around, though certainly not as skilled.

Coincidentally, while we're talking about women's issues, I desperately wanted to be in little league and be a pitcher. My mom played for a women's traveling team during the war as well. She played for a group called the Kaufmann Maids and she likened herself to Rosie O’Donnell because she was the second basemen and I am air quoting A League of Their Own. I desperately wanted to play little league, but again I wasn't allowed because girls weren't allowed to play little league back then. That's another more recent phenomenon.

Joining the Executive Office of the PA Department of Ag

Kurt Fuchs:

I'm glad that's also changed.  Now, after 20 years blazing a trail in Ag education, you switched gears a little bit and you joined the Executive Office of the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture.

How did that opportunity come to pass?

MeeCee Baker:

My sister, Beth was a little different than me and she has since passed away, but she went from Westchester to Hahnemann, which was a Medical School in Philadelphia and then worked in Philly at the City Workers Clinic where she met then-Mayor Ed Rendell and Beth was interested in politics, but mostly she loved sports. She would see the Mayor come through and they would go on and on about sports back and forth.

When he started his campaign for Governor, he would ask her questions about ag and rural issues because of where she was from. She finally said to talk to my sister, she's engaged in that day in and day out. The Governor's people called me and they asked all types of questions. At that time, I had never been involved in a campaign, I just answered their questions. I can remember pulling off the road at very specific places and giving an answer on whatever the issue of the day was.

When the Governor won I received the call asking what I wanted.  I thought what do you mean, what do you want? I really didn't know people worked campaigns to get jobs. After some thought, I thought that it would be a really interesting new chapter. I was fortunate to come into the Executive Office of the Department of Agriculture, under Secretary Dennis C. Wolff. My job was education and outreach to simplify it.

One of the things that we did that I'm probably most proud of is we put together something called the Marketplace for the Mind, and it was a collection of lesson plans that you could download. I wanted them to be downloaded and then you are ready to roll. We linked them to state academic standards, so if you were a science teacher and you wanted an Ag oriented lesson plan to match that state standard, all you had to do is type the standard in, and you would have a selection of lessons to choose from. At one time we were downloading about 10,000 lessons a month, so that was a really neat experience.

As administrations come and go, the marketplaces is no more, but it was certainly a really fun project to work on. The other fun project was the development of a Veterinary Tech program at the local career tech center at Dauphin County Technical Center. Secretary Wolff was really invested in that and wanted it to have a large animal emphasis. Those were two of the fun things we did while I was there.

Kurt Fuchs:

To think, even though that program isn't still around, the impact certainly I'm sure continues to be felt from the students that were able to utilize those programs and resources.

MeeCee Baker:

Yeah, I would like to think so. There’s agriculture education in agriculture or for those of us that are in the profession, the students that are taking high school education. Then there's the education about agriculture and that marketplace was targeted to those people that needed some basic education about agriculture.

I was just talking to an animal science professor last week and asked what keeps you up at night? His response was that some of the students that are coming from agriculture, don't have a basic knowledge of animal science. Those are things that we can do, like the marketplace, to help combat that so folks know where their food is coming from, and in turn, are better educated consumers are then better educated voters, so we can avoid some of these policies that just don't make sense.

How Versant Strategies was Founded

Kurt Fuchs:

Well, amen to that.

Now did your time at the Department of Ag lead directly to Versant Strategies? Or how did that come to fruition?

MeeCee Baker:

It did and I am very fortunate to have had a conversation with our former Appropriations Chair here in Pennsylvania, John Barley, who was the founder of Star Rock Farm, and then also founded this firm. If you know, John, you know that he's pretty forthright. He put that question to me, when the lights go out, administrations change, you get an appointed and you get un-appointed, so what are you going to do?

That initial conversation led to more. He wanted to take his firm in an agriculture and rural direction and wanted to make it bipartisan, so I came on and joined John. He had another partner at that time and that partner then eventually left. Secretary Wolff came on for a time and then John and I had the firm together. About five years ago, John decided that it was time for him to get back to Lancaster County and do all the wonderful things that he does. He made it so that I could buy the firm from him and then grow it from there. I'll always be very grateful for John having those early conversations and bringing me on board.

Kurt Fuchs:

Is it safe to say, I know it's always bad when we assume, but is it safe for me to assume that female led lobbying shops in Harrisburg or any other state capitol or DC is probably still not the norm?

MeeCee Baker:

No, not at all. The road was very bumpy when I was a high school ag teacher. There was a group called the Yellow Dog’s Society that is defunct now, but when a young woman would walk on the stage at the State Conference, the yellow dogs would howl at her. It was tough and this has also been tough.

It has not been easy, but I've kept my nose to the grindstone. I think age has probably softened me a bit, which is probably good. I knew that there were two things that I wanted to do really well, and that was help people get connected to decision-makers and then advocate on their behalf. To do that effectively you have to be able to teach and to tell a story.

Those same skills that were honed in the classroom make us successful as we can be here in Harrisburg. It is a rarity, but I will say that I think all of the time that I've had leading up to this has allowed us to realize the success that we have realized. We’re not trying to be one of those hard charging, heavy hitting firms. There's a place for everybody here in Harrisburg. We try to do things a little bit differently and our stock and trade is to be able to tell that story and make the connections with those grassroots stories out in the field.

Kurt Fuchs:

I can attest that you do that extremely well and have helped Farm Credit to do just that in Harrisburg and throughout the state.

Are you willing to share any particular wins that stick out in your mind either for their significance to agriculture, their challenging nature, or maybe even just the unique personalities involved?

MeeCee's Most Memorable Wins

MeeCee Baker:

I would say the first win that I think has had probably the biggest impact on the economy of the Commonwealth is the ability to buy wine by the glass at state wineries. When we came on, you couldn't do that. Allowing people to buy wine by the glass has just morphed into events. I will just go back to Juniata County, Juniata Valley Winery that's owned by George Hazard and folks in the ag industry and in central Pennsylvania. I have known George for years and we set up few different positions, but he bought a beautiful property.

There's not a lot to do in Juniata County on a Friday evening, but I'll tell you when George started his winery, and fingers crossed that we'll be meeting in groups again in the summer; they have a band there every Friday night and food trucks come in. People get their glass of wine, get a little bite to eat at the food trucks and bring a lawn chair to relax. It has really turned into a community type event. That’s probably what I'm most proud of is that wine by the glass.

Each session, we were able to join forces to get a few more things such as farmer's markets permits that wineries can go sell at farmer's markets. There was always an issue with noise and you would have a neighbor that would be unhappy. The noise ordinance was so strict that if you even opened your door to the winery, and you were playing a radio that would be amplified noise, and somebody could hear it outside on your porch or outside your premise, you could be cited as a noise violation. Somebody could pretty much shut your winery down.

A couple years back, we were able to come to a compromise and rectify that situation. The wine by the glass, I think is probably what has had the far reaching implications for the economy and was really proud of that. More recently in not only with legislative issues, but also in regulatory affairs, it takes a little finessing from time to time.

At the beginning of the pandemic, we were able to work with the Department of Agriculture to make sure our pest management folks were deemed essential. You might not think of that individual as being essential, but food processing facilities have infestations and homes have infestations. If you don't have somebody that can go in and even in medical facilities, something can get out of hand pretty fast. We were able to help them early on.

We work with agencies and then we also help people find money, which is always fun to find grants that are a fit. One of our clients is a distillery and it’s Pennsylvania's oldest distillery and they make a lot of eggnog during the holidays and they wanted to buy a Homogenizer to increase their capacity and potentially buy more cream. We all know that dairies were dumping cream last year, so this seems like a win-win. We were able to go to a funding agency and find $5,000 to help them offset the Homogenizer they bought. Those are three examples of wins, three different examples that I can say that we're proud of.

Medal Honor Award from the Philadelphia Society for Promoting Agriculture

Kurt Fuchs:

Well as an avid fan of value-added beverages, let me thank you on behalf of all the other consumers for your work with the wineries and the distilleries. Switching gears a little bit, an award that you had received that I found particularly interesting was the prestigious Medal of Honor Award from the Philadelphia Society for the Promotion of Agriculture. Now, I have to admit as a boy from the Eastern shore of Maryland, I wasn't really familiar with this organization until I started coming up into PA for work.

Can you tell us a little bit about that organization and the award itself?

MeeCee Baker:

The organization is the longest agricultural organization that has continued to be in existence. It is really an impressive group and they have an agricultural education mission, and they meet pretty much on a monthly basis, switching to virtual this year, of course. It's a really neat way to connect people in agriculture around the region. The speakers are really impressive and they have a lot of connection with the vet school at University of Pennsylvania. It pulls people from Maryland, Delaware, and Pennsylvania.

I was very honored with the gold medal. I was shocked actually, very humbled and I think I might've even gotten a little emotional when it was given to me. I was really honored to have that. It was a look back on some of the accomplishments in my career.

Kurt Fuchs:

Well, just from this short interview we can already attest to the deserving nature, so congratulations, that’s just fantastic.

MeeCee Baker:

Thank you.

A Word of Advice to Young People in Ag

Kurt Fuchs:

As a highly successful woman whose careers been marked by leadership, drive and service to agriculture, do you have any advice for young women who are considering or interested in careers in agriculture?

MeeCee Baker:

I would say probably this advice would be for young men and young women that are interested in this career. My best advice is advice that Jim Diamond gave me several years ago and that is to be the best at something, find an area of expertise that you can develop.

I always tell my daughter be the go-to at something. When I say the go-to, you want to be the person that folks call when they need an answer about a particular topic. When they call you, don't say that you don’t know and that Fred knows, you call Fred, find out and let those folks know. You make that call, get the information and get back to people. I think that goes throughout your life and not just into your career.

I have folks that don't know exactly what I do here in Harrisburg from my hometown. They just know I work in Harrisburg, but they don't know if I work in government, out of government or what I do, but they'll call and ask for help.

I just had a woman that cleaned houses call recently and she was wondering if she might qualify for the PPP loan program because she lost customers this year. I knew that I couldn’t give her financial advice, but I directed her to the website that you can go to take a PPP quiz. I think that being able to help people and having some expertise and this is kind of a side note, but I jokingly say that I pretend everybody likes me all the time, it just goes a lot better that way.

That’s probably a lesson that has been learned over the course of my life, but lobbying is a competitive sport. You’re against somebody 90% of the time, 10% of the time maybe everybody's in agreement, but 90% of the time there are winners and losers, you team against their team. I am not easily offended and I pretend everybody likes me all the time.

I think those are probably three pieces of advice would be to become that go-to, get back to people; if someone comes to you for information, try to help them as much as you can. Secondly, pretend everybody likes you all the time and, third try not to be offended. With today's society, especially in the last year, we've all been trapped at home. We watch TV, we're on social media and everybody seems to be on a hair trigger.  I think over the next year, we need to think about not being so reactive and try to sit and listen a bit more.

Advice for People New to Advocacy

Kurt Fuchs:

Three excellent pieces of advice.  I think even beyond the professional advice, but just advice for good living and for successful relationships. That's excellent, thank you.

What advice would you give to someone who is a casual advocate or new to advocacy, that’s never reached out to their State Representative or Senator before? Do you have any initial advice for someone in that situation?

MeeCee Baker:

I probably have two things I would mention. I recently read a great book that I would recommend to your listeners called Our Towns and it was written by the Fallows’. A husband and wife couple flew this teeny little plane across the country to small towns or what they consider small towns. Some of them were a lot bigger than the 500 people that are in Port Royal, where my hometown is. They looked at what worked and what didn't work and why some of these towns were really thriving.

The number one thing they came up with was they didn't let national politics get in the way of local progress. Again, these small towns that were successful did not let national politics get in the way of local progress. The first thing is I would not discount someone because they are in the opposite political party. I certainly wouldn't discount figuring that they're not going to be an agreement with you because you have differing political views. 

I like to always say, and you've heard me say this Kurt, I’m not a D or an R, I'm an “A” for Agriculture. I am a D, but I'm an A for agriculture and there's an old Steelers Wheel song that says “clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you,” and 80% of the population, maybe 90% of the population when you really sit and listen to each other, we're in the middle. I would just caution to not let that national political fuss really get in the middle with you going visit.

The second thing I would say is don't go in first with an “ask,” get to know that individual first. I always say help before you ask. There's lots of things that you can do to help your local Senator, Representative, or Congressperson. You can offer a tour of your facility and many of your folks in MidAtlantic Farm Credit have farms, so offer the person to come in.

National Ag Day is coming up here in a couple of days and you could invite your elected official out, take a few pictures, put it on social media, and show them what it takes to do what you do day in and day out. If you have a small agribusiness, invite them to come out, let them know what keeps you up at night and how they could potentially help. I think forming those positive relationships are so essential before you go in and ask. You certainly don't want to go in the first conversation shouting at a staff member or pounding on the table. I have talked to staff members on both sides of the aisle this year and everybody's getting shouted at.

When someone calls in and says thank you, it really goes a long away. National Ag Day is coming up and a lot of electives don't even know there's a National Ag Day. Perhaps we're harvesting grapes, check and see if the Senator would want to come out for an hour and help with the harvest. Take some pictures and maybe put it on social media. All of those things are really helpful establishing that relationship.

I'm going to go back to my advice to the students is to be that go-to person, especially with staff. Staffers are having an issue and they will call for the lots of reasons, that often times  has nothing to do with a client that we have, but staff on the Hill know that we could answer an ag or rural issue question. We'll get a call and we'll say that we know you don't have anybody with this interest, but can you tell us what the technical piece behind this is; what is the science of this? We get those calls from regulatory offices, as well as legislative offices. The teachers in us are always happy to explain something and then give them some references, make a connection.

We recently made a connection with the Dean of the College of Agriculture on an issue. It was on glyphosate and they had a great conversation with the staffer, who was really well-informed. They had an expert in the field, obviously with the Dean that was able to talk to them.

Kurt Fuchs:

MeeCee, those are incredible pieces of advice. Just adding on to your previous suggestions for folks possibly pursuing careers in Ag. I agree being that resource is critical to being a good advocate.

MeeCee Baker:

I would just end with saying that never underestimate the power of a nice thank you note. There's a lot of negativity in the world, so a nice handwritten thank you note with three sentences, it doesn't have to be elaborate, goes a long way in your personal and professional life.

MeeCee's Lightning Round

Kurt Fuchs:

Now, here's where we get to the fun part MeeCee. Not that the serious conversation that we've had wasn't fun, but when I have the opportunity to host the podcast, I like to include what I call the Lightning Round.

I'll give you five pairs of related items and all you need to do is pick your preference between the pair. Does that makes sense?

MeeCee Baker:

Absolutely.

Kurt Fuchs:

Okay. Are you ready?

MeeCee Baker:

 I'm ready.

Kurt Fuchs:

Okay.  Primanti Brother’s Sandwich or classic Philly cheesesteak?

MeeCee Baker:

Philly cheesesteak

Kurt Fuchs:

Sheetz, or Wawa?

MeeCee Baker:

Sheetz

Kurt Fuchs:

Red wine or white wine?

MeeCee Baker:

Rosé, is that a choice?

Kurt Fuchs:

Absolutely.

Utz or Herr’s?

MeeCee Baker:

Utz.

Kurt Fuchs:

Blue jacket or varsity jacket.

MeeCee Baker:

A blue jacket, especially if it's blue corduroy.

Kurt Fuchs:

That's right, I figured that was an easy one. That was a gimme.

MeeCee Baker:

That's an easy one. And then the potato chips, I should’ve said my hometown of Hartley's. I should have asked for option “C."

Kurt Fuchs:

Oh, okay. Well, we can amend the results.

MeeCee Baker:

There you go.

What do you Advocate for in Agriculture?

Kurt Fuchs:

Our final question, thank you for indulging me on that lightning round. I think it's a nice way to just kind of loosen up a little. We like to sign off with our final question.

What do you advocate for in agriculture?

MeeCee Baker:

Understanding of the science behind agriculture first and foremost, and then also advocating for the people behind the science, behind the agriculture.

Kurt Fuchs:

Excellent. Well, you do a hell of a job at it, so thank you for that.

MeeCee Baker:

Thank you.

Kurt Fuchs:

MeeCee, I can tell you that once my baby girl is old enough, this episode is going to be required listening. I want to thank you for your time today for providing a glimpse into your impressive story and for your agricultural advocacy. It's been really great having you on, so thank you.

MeeCee Baker:

Thank you. I would like to just end with saying that my dad was a big baseball player and I can remember throughout my childhood people saying, “Oh Bob, you should've had a boy.” He always would say, I like my girls just fine and his goal in life was to make sure my sister and I were educated and would be able to take care of ourselves the rest of our life.

I owe a debt of gratitude to him. I know you're going to be a dad just like my dad and he built a great foundation for Beth and I.

Kurt Fuchs:

Well, I'll tell you if little Josephine turns out half as successful, I'll be pretty damned pleased.

MeeCee Baker:

Oh, she will be for sure. Thank you, Kurt.

Kurt Fuchs:

Thank you. To our listeners, don't forget to rate, review, subscribe, and share with a friend. You can get podcast notes and subscribe to email alerts at mafc.com/podcast.  Send any topics or guest suggestions to podcast@mafc.com. Again, thanks for your time, your attention, and please stay well.

Take care everybody.